Would We Lie to You?

[00:00:00] Are you going to push the button and make the music happen?

[00:00:35] Greetings. This is the Long in the Boot podcast, the podcast coming to you from the heel of the boot of southwest Louisiana. I am your host, G Long. Sitting across the way is Deb. Hi, all people. Old people? All people. Oh, all people. All people. They may be old, they may be young. All people. We will. All are welcome. All are welcome. All are welcome. That's right. And you only have to cover kids' ears occasionally. Oh, you never know. Yeah, they slip out.

[00:01:03] Yeah, it happens. It's just part of the conversation. Hey, you know what? What? If you'd like to reach the Long in the Boot podcast, all you've got to do is send an email to longintheboot at gmail.com. You can also, of course, call the number at 337-502-9011. Podcast, longintheboot.com. We actually had a request. I know. Not a request. No, no, a good topic idea. And it's something we've played with anyway before. But I think I have a different take on it. And we could research that. So thank you, Ms. S.S.

[00:01:33] Yes. Initials S.S. Yes. Unless she got married. And if she does, I don't remember your married name. Yeah. That. But we appreciate the input. And we will certainly look at it. Because humor is the only thing that gets you through. Ain't that the truth? Yeah, it is. And lying. So what's been happening? Oh, nothing much. Hadn't seen you in so long. I was just wondering. Yeah, I know. And we're about to take a vacation together. Yeah, I know.

[00:02:02] We're going to be home for a week and a couple of days. Yeah. All alone. And then the summer. Oh, the summer. Yeah, that's a long, hot summer. But that summer, that's not a vacation. No, no. That's work. Yes. Well, vacations are work too sometimes. Oh, absolutely. But taking the grand chilling. Mm-hmm. Going to do the Branson thing. Going to take the grands to Branson. Yep. Yep. Already got the place. Silver Dollar City. I'm so excited. I got that rate set in.

[00:02:32] And I'm going to pretend I'm not as excited about Silver Dollar City as I was when I was a wee lad, but hey, I can't help it. Love that place. Well, good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's in my DNA. You're taking that joy with you. Oh, I will. It'll definitely be going with me. That's it. That's the whole point of what I say. And those grandkids better not ruin my experience. Oh, they best not. I'm telling you. I'm going to. What would I do? I don't know. I would fuss. Not let them have chicken nuggets. There you go. Like a good meme he would. All right.

[00:03:02] So before we get before we get into our real topic, actually do something serious. I just want to point just I want to as as a teacher of history. All right. I would like to. What's the word? Bitch about something. OK. Shocking. Yeah. Well, I have to. And I would bitch about this no matter who's president. So just keep that in mind. A couple. First, let me just read a few headlines to kind of as an aperitif. OK.

[00:03:32] From the Times Republican. MHS students fired up and ready to go for National History Day contest. How about the Newark advocate? I love this. Licking Heights students advanced to state competition in Ohio History Day contest. Mississippi. This is Mississippi. Mississippi students secure spots at National History Day contest. Newspapers across the country. Getting kids primed. Getting primed for the National History Day contest.

[00:04:01] How long has this national contest gone on? It's been going on for a while. I'm not going to. I don't have the exact number of years. Oh, OK. But that's OK. It's been going on for a while. And it's basically high school kids from across the country. They have a topic. Yes. Like an essay thing. Yeah. And they're allowed to do an exhibit, do a performance, write a paper, make a website or documentary within the confines of the theme and time period. So some sort of media presentation.

[00:04:29] And whoever wins in the state, of course, they go to Washington, D.C. And get to show their winners. And get to show their stuff. And they've been competing for this competition all year. OK. And it's. Oh, like ranking. And then they're moving up. And then we get our finalists. And those are the winners that get to go. Yeah. They've probably been doing fundraisers and such for it, too. Right. It's National History Day is the actual day.

[00:04:55] And National History Day, of course, glorifies and holds on high and places on a pedestal the wonderful history of the United States. You mean the stuff we've done in the past? Near and dear to my heart. OK. And so, of course, the current administration has killed every bit of funding for it. OK. Now, that funding is going to save the taxpayers huge money. How much is saved?

[00:05:25] $336,000. OK. $336,000 cut from the national budget. And children's hopes dashed. And yes. And. Ripped away. Yes. This was literally cut to save money. That's the reason given. That was it. $336,000. So really what we're saying is this is not important. And I think. Not worth that much money. And they are currently attempting to raise the money. Well, I was going to say.

[00:05:55] Then people will get together. And because they've had to raise the money, the kids have been raising money to get to travel. Now, this money was part of the National Endowment for the Humanities. Oh, well, that's attached to some Kennedy Center and museum crap. Museums, libraries, history, things. Yes. Which a lot of people currently in D.C. don't seem to care for. Not knowledge. Or they don't like parts of it. They don't like the knowledge.

[00:06:21] Certain parts of history don't need to be there, even though they happened, according to many of these. Well, I don't like to lie to myself about what happened in the past. If you would like to help these kids go to the National History Contest. And you want to donate? It's nhd.org slash donate. They only need to raise. They've already raised more than or about half. They need $132,000. Oh, I think they'll probably get it because there are kind people in the world.

[00:06:50] But this was, of course, a doge cut amongst other parts of the National Endowment for the Humanities. That is really a shame. Well, that's just part of the idea then that you can't go in and just logically and with some sense make cuts here reasonably. I have a solution. I have a solution. In honor of National History Day, the president could cut one golf weekend. That would take care of it. That would fund. Actually, that would take care of it.

[00:07:18] That would fund this contest for decades. Okay. According to the dollars that I'm looking at. So I'm going to go ahead and say in this case, I've got it down better than Elon. Can you tell us what day is National History Day? Because we just had National Sibling Day. And I think Pet Day happened too, which both I missed on. Well, I had National History Day and now I've just lost it because, of course, I did. Is the Google gone? No, I had it in front of me. Oh, okay.

[00:07:48] Because if the Google's gone, all is lost. Hang on. National History Day. By the way, National History Day has been around. Since 1974, that's when it was started. Okay, well, that's what I wanted to know. And the reason it was started was in order to get students to know more about American history. Yeah. And so, you know. Because 1976 was coming and we were going to have our bicentennial.

[00:08:15] And it was going to be my happiest memory, my happiest year memory ever of my life. And, you know, for some reason I'm thinking it's like July 4th. I don't know why I can't tell you. Well, that would be great to send the kids to D.C. on July 4th. Actually, no. It's in June. Okay. And why is the website not coming up now? All right. Well, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The audience doesn't know. It's in June. So it's coming up pretty quick. All right.

[00:08:42] So it'll be you'll have to get back to the audience and tell them when. Maybe you can do a post to encourage National History Day. Like look up the history and find the truth. You don't need history lies. We don't want. We don't need history lies. In fact, that's one of the areas where we should have truth all the time. You know, our topic today. Can we segue? I, you know, I suppose. Okay.

[00:09:11] Because I'm done with everything else. Let's just segue. You want to. You just want to jump right into it? I don't know. Do you want to do the history? I was going to tell you what the theme was for the contest this year. Okay. Do tell that. Rights and responsibilities in history. Oh, sweet. Is it? Well, no, that's what you want, though, right? You want the kids knowing. And so they've done their research. They've created something. They were supposed to study rights and responsibilities in history. Who decides who has rights? Does everyone have the same rights?

[00:09:41] Who decides on the limits individuals should or should not have? And why? What led to establishing certain rights? And to whom were they given? Well, I understand now. They canceled it because they already have answered that question. They've answered the question, and maybe they don't want the answers. Well, no. What I'm saying is the President of the United States has answered all those questions with one word. Me. It's a pronoun. No, it's a gut. So he's right, then.

[00:10:11] We don't need to waste money on it because the answers are there. Already there. Okay. All right. So in June. Well, I am sure that the thousands and thousands of people who listen to our podcast will appreciate the topic this week. We're on like 12,000 now downloads. Hey, thousands and thousands. Okay. Maybe not all at once, but. It is the most important podcast out there. No. Out there. Every politician apparently now has jumped on the podcast bandwagon.

[00:10:41] It's going to get crazy. It is crazy. It's going to get crazier. The number of calls that I turn. I mean, I take hundreds of calls a day from people saying that. Stop lying because you've got to teach the history so you're not taking damn phone calls all day. Scam likely is the only person that calls you just like me. A lot of people call and they tell me that it's the best podcast. Many, many people. Just keep saying it. There you go. Go ahead. Ask me. Ask me who. Can you name names? They're good people. Good people. Many people.

[00:11:10] Would you elaborate and give me a specific? Fine, fine, beautiful people. Okay. All right. Now that we've established our topic. There. That's true now. Our topic is lies. Yes. Yes. Lies. Is it worse than ever, G? I don't think so, actually. No, that's what we learned. Yeah. Isn't that what we took away from us? I'm starting to discover that lying may just, in fact, be hardwired into us at birth. It's who we are. And it's what we are. Studies on children. They lie.

[00:11:37] By the way, there's only one other group of animals that actually do deception with intent. Primates. Because we're so close. And, no, we're not. It's a lie. It's a lie. Oh, man. So, I guess the first thing we've got to do is nail down what a lie is. All right. Well, wait. I mean, if you want to do that, I have, like, psychologically, I have all the types of lies. No, no.

[00:12:06] I'm just talking about just in general. Oh, okay. Because a lot of people obviously already know what it means. I mean, we have white lies. Well, we haven't even got – how about just lies itself? All right. Get to basics, Webster. A lie is an assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving or misleading someone. The practice of communicating lies is called lying. A person who communicates a lie may be termed a liar.

[00:12:30] Lies can be interpreted as deliberately false statements or misleading statements, though not all statements that are literally false are considered lies, such as metaphors, hyperboles, or hyperboles, if you wish, and other figurative rhetoric are not intended to mislead, so therefore they don't qualify as lies, even though they are untrue.

[00:12:51] While lies are explicitly meant for literal interpretation by their audience, lies may also serve a variety of instrumental, interpersonal, or psychological functions for the individuals who use them. All right. There we go. So that's very complex. There's a lot there. I'm not going to try to – what's the phrase? Unpack it. It's a lot. But it's a lot. And intent has a lot to do with it. Correct.

[00:13:16] And think about the skill level of an individual in daily life for us to have to be able to gauge and interpret those kinds of things from somebody that we're communicating with, whether they're being satirical, whether they're being metaphoric, or – you know, you have to pick up on all those subtleties and also be prepared for an actual damaging lie and being able to identify that, which apparently is so much harder to do.

[00:13:41] Well, one of the studies I read from – some colleges probably had its funding cut about this – said that they did an interesting study. They took a bunch of people and they made them write down a number of the number of times they lied during a day and only gave them three seconds to do it. Just jot down the number of times you think you lied. So it just has to be your gut. Just go. Go. And then they had them actually ponder a day and then keep track of how many actual untruths they told during the day.

[00:14:11] And their original estimation was wildly, wildly off. And then they're – when they thought about it for a length of time, they came up with a higher number. Yeah. And then when they actually logged every untruth during the day, basically they recorded themselves the entire day and they went back and identified every time they lied to someone. Yeah. And that number was astronomically higher. And to themselves? Did they count lies to themselves? Well, the thing recorded what they were – interaction between people. And this was in a business setting.

[00:14:41] Oh, I see. Okay. Office setting and college setting, college classes. And so I thought it was interesting though that most people don't think they lie that much. And it turns out that the vast majority of people lie far more than they think. And for a variety of reasons, which is kind of cool. Yes. Yes.

[00:14:59] You do have types of lies and when they do studies, like especially on children, because surprisingly they hadn't – the studies on children and lying didn't start really until the 80s, 1980s, before they actually started looking at young children and their capability of lying. But you have lies to protect feelings of somebody. Right. We can get into that. We can impact those things. You know, so.

[00:15:25] One of the things about lying that – one of the first things they studied about lying was the consequences of lying. Mm-hmm. And this is in the modern age. Because since lies often aim to deceive, you are giving something to someone as factual information, but you are in fact giving them false information. Intentionally or unintentionally? Well, you can't unintentionally lie.

[00:15:52] Well, you can unintentionally give them information you deem to be factual, but it's not. But if it's not factual, it's an opinion. So if you give them factual information – If you think you're factual information – That's wrong. That's not a lie. Well, that's my point. But if you are actually aiming to deceive, when the deception is unsuccessful, the lie may be discovered, and the discovery of the lie discredits all other statements by the speaker previously in the mind of the person who's been lied to.

[00:16:19] Thereby, it stains the speaker's reputation. And it also can, of course, affect your social or legal standing. Oh, obviously. Okay. I think we should go back in time, though. The history. Well, you know. The true history. You've got headlines constantly. Wall Street lies create financial downfall. Web of lies led to murder of husband. I lied my way to the top, a Harvard grad. You know, just people lie all the time. And it's not worse than ever. That's really the lesson, I think.

[00:16:49] And I thought it was interesting. But the number of lies per day has skyrocketed because of social media. Well, yeah. Because that's what social media is. Well, all conversation turns out to be lies. And influencers. I just read that story. That study about the people lying, how much they do it? You mean the kids or the adults? No, the adults in the college setting with the estimations. That study took place in the 1980s. Oh, God. So it's gotten so much worse. Yes. And there was no social media then. Yeah.

[00:17:18] So they weren't even doing that. It was the story now that current times are the downfall of the influencer. I've been saying that these people can't continue to make money doing this. But when I read the story, I was surprised at how often they are lying. Like some of the things that they've been doing to get, you know, nice hotel rooms for free so that they could pretend like this is where they live or this is where they're staying. So a lot of these businesses are like, OK, you know what?

[00:17:48] We're not giving you anything free anymore. Right. But they would like steal fancy cars and pretend like it was theirs. They're in. Yes. Or they'd all like six or seven influencers living in one really expensive place sharing that. But that's how they all film. Right. So they just continually deceive an audience to try to get subscribers, to try to get sponsors. And they've been making a living doing it. But that that heyday is over. Well, we hope. I hope. I hope it is on the decline. So let's say that.

[00:18:17] But again, they've created a livelihood based on lies. Well, if they do one thing with the current situation, killing social media influencers would be a great, great thing. And maybe. There's a. I watched a documentary, a short one called Apple Cider Vinegar. I watched bits of it. Yeah. And it's because it came up about lying. And the number of people who have died. Oh, no. Because when they got cancer. New age idiots told them Apple Cider Vinegar would cure their cancer.

[00:18:47] Oh. Or a combination of Apple Cider Vinegar, holistic healing, crystals. Now see. But wait. So all the people that they. Because hundreds of people have websites. Dedicated to this information. And first of all, Apple Cider Vinegar, the number of people it saved is essentially zero. Yeah. And the. Because like one guy said, oh, Apple Cider Vinegar absolutely cured me. And they went. He had 10 years of chemotherapy. But his.

[00:19:17] So why is he doing a website then or trying to sell that to other people? He did a. He did a testimonial for Apple Cider Vinegar. Oh. Curing him. But he neglected. Yes. A lie of omission. So it was a lie of omission. Yes. But I was shocked. Which is an extremely common lie. And that is still going on. You've got the people who believe that colloidal silver would cure everything. Yeah. And they turned blue. Yes. I remember that. I remember that. Well, that's lying too on a grand scale. It is. It is. And then for what me. Or for what end.

[00:19:46] You know, your motivation there to make money. But at the cost of harming people. Yeah. Or do you think. And I'm assuming honor doesn't play into it at all. No, no. I don't think that whole idea. And I don't know if it was ever real. That, you know, you shake a man's hand and that's your word. I don't know that that's ever been a. So I guess we'll go back. The earliest. Well, it's not the earliest, obviously. No, but Garden of Eden is. Well. That's where this one starts. Yeah. I guess it is the Garden of Eden. The Irish Times, right?

[00:20:16] I mean, if you. History tells us that people have been lying for. Well, since time began. Well, there's a point in the Bible that says that God cannot lie. Okay. But there are several examples in the Bible of God deliberately causing enemies to become disoriented and confused with lies in order to provide victory for Israel. All right. There's a bunches of passages in the Bible featuring exchanges that assert lying is immoral and wrong. And yet.

[00:20:45] However, there's a lot of examples in the Old Testament, especially about, for instance, Abraham instructed his wife, Sarah, to mislead the Egyptians that she was, in fact, his sister when she wasn't. She was his half sister. But it was intentionally misleading because it was designed to lead the Egyptians to believe that Sarah was not Abraham's wife. So. So. So maybe God doesn't, but he approves of it. Yes. He sanctions it.

[00:21:12] Well, and, you know, the they call, of course, Satan is referred to as the father of lies. Yes. So. So. But that's in the New Testament. So it begins with that idea that it's a sin and it is bad. And in that vein, we have, of course, St. Augustine, Augustine of Hippo. He actually wrote books about lying. He's one of the first people to actually sit down and write a book. Well, because again, it was so prevalent.

[00:21:41] It must have been. I know it was. And his his book, one was called On Lying and the other one was called Against Lying. And Augustine divided his lies into eight categories in order of descending severity. So number one is the worst. It's the heart. Yeah. Lies and religious teaching. Number one. Yes. Lies that harm others and help no one. That's your soul.

[00:22:07] You're lying to somebody about their everlasting and their and their relationship with their Lord. Right. And OK, so lies that harm others and help no one. That's number two. Number three, lies that harm others and help someone. OK. Lies told for the pleasure of lying. Just for the joy. It is a thrill, apparently, according to psychology today. Lies told to groups of others in smooth discourse. Yes. And that's those are political lies.

[00:22:36] And then finally, we have the last three, which are the least damaging lies that harm no one and help someone materially. Lies that harm no one and that help someone spiritually. And finally, lies that harm no one and that protect someone from bodily defilement. Oh. So for instance. Yeah, I was going to say, let's touch on that one. If you tell somebody, dude, you don't want to go out with her, man. She's got an STD. That's a lie that you're trying to protect your buddy from bodily defilement. Yes. But you don't know.

[00:23:06] Well, wait. What was the lie? You don't want to go out with her or the fact that you don't want you don't want him to go, you know, see her. Why? Because you want her? No, because she has STD. But does he know that for sure? Well, I don't know that for sure. I see. It's a lie. Was that the lie? No. So he was protecting him? Laying down with her without being in the proper bounds of matrimony is a sin. I am trying to help him. All right. I'm actually covering like two here. The spiritually part two.

[00:23:35] Oh, you're saving his soul as well. I'm doing it out of a place of goodness. Liar. Well, scripture says every man is a liar. So from the Middle Ages past the Renaissance that people just, you know. And by the way, Augustine also said that if you tell a lie in jest as a joke, still a lie, buddy. And you're still. Because humor doesn't. It's not good. You shouldn't lie. Well, see, there's part of the humor thing. Not everywhere in the world finds humor in things.

[00:24:04] Not every culture has a sense of humor. No, English is actually the big makers of the modern satire. Well, no, French actually did satire. I was going to say that. I think that comes from the French. I think that we took what they did and wit and all such. And still in the ancient. We've got to stick with the ancient for a minute. Oh, do you? Oh, yeah. You've got to do Buddhist. Oh, yeah. All right. Because basically a breach of says the fourth of the five Buddhist precepts involve falsehoods spoken or committed in action.

[00:24:34] Avoiding other forms of wrong speech is considered part of this precept. A breach of the precept is considered more serious. The falsehood is motivated by an ulterior motive rather than a small white lie. The trick is in Buddhist texts is to always be honest, to always have honor. And lying is not only to be avoided because it harms others, but because it goes against the ideal of finding truth. Of you trying to find enlightenment, trying to be the best you. Yes.

[00:25:04] And well, I wonder then considering balance, do you have a balance of truth and lie? Oh, I was going to say, do I have a balance to that idea? Yes. Yes. Norse. The Norse. The Vikings. All right. What did they think? When dealing with a false foe who lies, you must tell lies back. You sink to his level. That's right. You don't search for enlightenment, bitch. Absolutely not. So those are some of the ancient versions. And I have Aristotle and Plato. And you wonder why we're all so different. You know, actually.

[00:25:33] Plato encouraged lying if it bettered the republic. No, if it bettered the republic. Oh, yeah. Okay. So like I like French skeptic, Pierre Sharon. I want that job. How do you become a skeptic? I was born that way. I know, right? I'm sorry. It's a job. This guy had it as a job. Well, he was writing in the late 16th century. He said, observe how all mankind are made up of falsehood and deceit, of tricks and lies.

[00:26:02] How unfaithful and dangerous, full of disguise and design. All conversation is at present. But especially how much more it abounds near the prince and how the hypocrisy reigns. Well, that fits. So that's the courtly stuff. That goes back to the Machiavelli. Well, the 12th century English courtier, Bishop of Chargers, John of Salisbury. You have to lie in court. Feared no time had ever been more dangerous for men of honest virtue.

[00:26:30] According to John, the royal and ecclesiastical courts of Europe teamed with every sort of deceiver and falsifier and weedler and gift givers and actors and mimics and gossip mongers. The only thing that surpassed the variety was their number for the foul inundation of their cancerous disease seeps into all. So there is rarely anyone left uncontaminated. So if you're going to run. Yes. If you're going to run in those circles, you're going to get Mar-a-Lago face. Well, yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:59] And by the way, Scripture also says, and John quoted it, was the Bible does say every man is a liar. Yes, I know. I told you. I told you Scripture said that. Yes. Every man. Every man. Oh, so women don't lie. But it came. But lying became almost like an art form. Well, yes. That's the whole point in court that you hear Nathaniel, English Renaissance writer Nathaniel Walker said in the refined courtier,

[00:27:25] we must demean ourselves acceptably before our superiors without appearing willing to lick the very spittle from under their feet. Nice. So you have to be constructive in your lying and flattery. You have to plan these conspiracies and coups. And it's a chess game of verbal. It's a verbal chess game. Well, and they actually divide it off, too. Like, that's the Renaissance, right?

[00:27:52] It stops with the French Revolution, this new art form of lying. Yes. I would assume the French Revolution, part of it was because your head came off. Cut the end. Cut off. Yeah, exactly. Well, because it had grown to such a level, I guess, of deception. And this is the question today in modern times, right? At what point can we get past and trust again if all we're ever told are lies?

[00:28:19] Which has been the problem for however long. Well, and is that the point of the French Revolution then? Or is that the cut of the jib? Well, but after the French Revolution began and Rose Pierre and those guys took over, they lied as well. They lied as well. It started again because it's in our nature. Yeah. It's who we are. And they were doing it to hang on to power and to also perpetuate the revolution.

[00:28:44] They thought the revolution wasn't done, that it needed to not only spread beyond the borders of France, but that every single individual who was against the revolution, i.e. Robespierre at that point, had to be killed. No, it wasn't they can't say that. It was literally cut off their heads so they can't say that anymore. We're not going to let them say that. Yeah. I mean, that's absolutely insane. But we have to have moral principles to guide our actions. I mean.

[00:29:12] But nobody ever comes out in favor of lies. You know, it's like, yes, lie as much as possible. It just doesn't happen. Yeah, I don't know. So it's not the ethics of Aristotle. It's the rhetoric of Cicero. I mean, we just can't be ethical. What was the thing? During the Middle Ages, so the story goes, every lie was prohibited, which is different than claiming no one lied. We always have and always will do all sorts of things we shouldn't.

[00:29:40] Whereas during the Renaissance, people became a bit more realistic about what it takes to get on in the world. To get by, yes. How are we going to move forward? Well, we're going to have to lie. Then it seems as if it just kept going. And it's hard to find anything about our lies ever okay. You know, I mean, that's one of those things. Theologians would say, no, you can never lie. Well, no, and that's it.

[00:30:06] In the medieval times, they argued that you have to lie to protect yourself or the state. But the theologians said, no, look, a civil society depends on the fact that we are assuming we're dealing with each other truthfully and honestly. And if we start to say some lies are acceptable, then that was my point, too, is how can you ever then trust anyone when you sign a contract, when you make a promise? Because it undermines everything that we are as a civil society.

[00:30:36] Why do we have contracts? Well, we have them legally so that somebody can't just shake your hand and lie to your face and not do what they've said they were going to do. Because we freeze we freeze the terms on paper. We literally stop the ability to lie once it's written, once it's written down. You can say, OK, you can say that's not what I meant. Then I'm going to bring it back to the modern times because I wanted to end with something now that are the future.

[00:31:02] No, no. But it's the idea then that we have technology now. Oh, so a piece of paper with that information and somebody has a copy of it and they have that in their file and I have it in my file and the person I signed with has it in their file. But now it's digital. I don't have that piece of paper. Everything is in the computer. Go down the memory. And then then what exactly? What if we don't have the future then leaves everything?

[00:31:31] And the crazy thing is now you can hear a lie today. Look up what was said. Find that is in fact a lie. The exact thing that lied. And when you point it out. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Because they already have in their head which one of those two statements they want to believe or remember. And they're not going to change their mind. Yeah. So that's that's where we are. So was lying worse then? I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Oh, no.

[00:31:58] Oh, it's like. Yeah. So next time somebody's railing about some lying politician, you know, you just it's we know the prominence of lying in our society and maybe rather just worry less about the fact that everyone is lying. But really bother with why are they lying? Yes. What is what is it within us? Yeah. That makes us lie. Or what is it that they have to gain by their lie?

[00:32:25] Because if you think about it, human beings really are the only ones who can do this because we have spoken language. Contemplate and yeah. And it's not just spoken language because you you reveal your lies with body language, with face. Although as we learn about the kids. Well, about the kids and about reading body language in general. Yes. Because it's hard to find out when they're lying. Yeah. You can see when criminal minds, they know immediately when somebody's lying because they twitch or whatever.

[00:32:55] It turns out that that's actually not a very good science. And people think it is. They've been convinced by media that there are these people out there who can look at somebody who's lying and know it immediately. And it turns out that that's really not the case. There are people who are better at it than others. Yes. Yes. Like the ones who they're gamblers, they poker for a living and they turn out to be actually some of the best at figuring out when a person doesn't have a good hand and is acting like they do or whatever.

[00:33:25] But you remember, too, the other person is also in on the game. Yeah. So if I have a tell, let's say, and I have a tell that it's a bad hand and I, I don't know, tug my earlobe. Well, it works just the same way if I have a good hand and tug my earlobe. And then that guy goes, aha, he has a bad hand. Yes. See, so the lie is mutual. So it is different there because both people are active in attempting to deceive others. Yes.

[00:33:52] Um, but as far as like, because of like criminal minds, again, I go back to that because they do it so quickly because they only have a certain amount of time to fix. Yes, they've got 30 minutes to solve this. And it's like they know every time. Yes. They're never fooled. It's like, oh, he seems tense. Oh, he's lying. It turns out that those guys are not 100%. Well, no. Not even close. Technology now tells us that fingerprints aren't 100% either. Yeah. And we know that polygraph tests aren't 100%.

[00:34:19] So now does that call into question every single person that's ever been convicted based on fingerprint evidence? No, not really. I read the statistics. Did you? Yeah. And the odds are still way against being wrong about fingerprints. Yeah. And now AI can actually look deeper into fingerprints and get rid of that error. So modern technology will help clear up that kind of testing and they'll get a better read. Basically, AI is arguing, no, it is 100% different.

[00:34:48] You just have to be able to look at it in a way that you can't, stupid human. We're more sophisticated than we can do that. Well, and then that brings to question lie detector tests, right? They don't work. They don't, but they can tell somebody that you're skilled at lying, that you're able to control, you know, like, because they'll question you on things and have you lie purposely so they can gauge your reaction. Well, it turns out that sociopaths are really great. They are.

[00:35:16] And so then that leads me to question why, what was it, the Department of Defense? One of the agencies recently was lie detector testing all, you know, bunches of their employees. Homeland Security. Homeland Security. Christie Noem. And it was the, it was, like they said, it was the low level groups that they were testing, like 50 different people. One of them at least was fired. But remember what they were testing. In this particular instance, they were testing loyalty to the president. Yes. Not the Constitution.

[00:35:44] Well, if they had given any information out to the press, they're pretty sure somebody leaked something to someone and they wanted to test that. So one person for sure got fired. At least 50 were given a lie detector test. And like I said, at least one was fired for that. Yeah. So they failed. I mean, but it's a loyalty test. It's a freaking loyalty test. With a lie detector equipment all attached to you.

[00:36:07] Like they said, you know, these are all low level people and they're just really creating a, you know, feeling of fear here. Yeah. How about this? Let me hook her up and we'll find out if she actually murdered her dog. Oh, or if she lied in the book for what? Why would you? Well, she murdered her dog. I know. Okay. Well, what I'm saying is she claims that she had to. I don't believe it. Okay.

[00:36:34] Well, if we won't lie detector test, if we won't take lie detector test information as, you know, proof in a case, then what good is it to fire somebody with that? Isn't that just a lawsuit waiting to happen? No, because they're not going to, they're not going to win. You don't think they'll pursue it because they won't win. Yeah. So just carry yourself on and go find another job. Well, they'll just, it'll happen. I mean, it's, it's already happened to people today or yesterday lost their Supreme court case to be reinstated at their jobs. Yeah, that's true.

[00:37:05] And I don't know honestly why you'd want to go back. True. Well, they were suing because their contract says they cannot be fired unless they do something wrong in office, basically. And the courts had sided with them, but the Supreme court said that they're going to restudy the issue, but currently they can still be fired. Okay. So, you know, we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. So back to lying. Um, it's kind of what we were doing.

[00:37:35] Yeah. It's kind of what we were doing. Um, did you want to talk about the kids? I do. We got to talk about the kids. Okay. I left my papers in the other room. What? I had something in the other room and I got to go get it. All right. Go ahead. Go ahead. While Deb is gone, I'm going to change the room around and she won't know. When she comes back, she'll think she's going mad.

[00:38:02] I will also lower her chair and raise her desk. And welcome back. You let a dog in. What? You let a dog in. Oh, did I? You did. Oh. I hurt her. Well, if she can keep her yappy self quiet. I don't know. She is a lie detector. She is like a little lie detector. It's not safe to have her around. That's her job. That is literally what that little chihuahua Jack Russell does.

[00:38:32] She told me about that burner phone you have. She did not. She doesn't know anything about anything. Nothing. Crazy kid. Okay. So children, how, how, how inherent is it in us to lie? Well, it, it starts, it starts pretty dang early. It does start young. But think about American history for a minute, even though we're not going to have the contest probably.

[00:38:57] The, uh, think about what we get when we were little kids, we get shoehorned immediately that George Washington story, right? Yes. And we don't believe that. No, we don't believe it. But why do we tell the story? It's not a, it's not a thing you're supposed to believe anyway. When you get older, you know, it's like, you know, fables and legends to help us act right. Yes. Don't lie. But parents teach us how to lie. Maybe you just tell your granny that you like that gift. You tell her you like that sweater. Okay.

[00:39:27] Cause you don't want to hurt her feelings. You teach them to lie right away. And they know how to do it by two. Well, that's the really scary part. That is. I thought it was interesting, um, that the, uh, I thought it was interesting that different societies have different views of lying, but in the end, all societies for the most part just accept it as a fact. Um, but the tests that they've done with children tend to cross ethnic lines.

[00:39:56] Oh yeah, absolutely. And, and some gender differences, uh, girls may be a little different than boys, but overall pretty much the same. Yeah. Um, so let's just kind of break them down, I guess, uh, lying to protect the feelings of another. Yes. And, uh, you use the example of the Christmas present for the grandma. Yeah. And so when we're doing that, we're teaching kids how to adapt socially.

[00:40:23] Um, so we've now taught this girl that it's better to lie than it is to hurt the feelings of another person. Yes. Now, what was it only because of her, it was a grandma or is it just in general? Cause the child's going to learn that that's the norm. Yeah. And of course we, we also forget, we tend to forget that kids are watching us all the time. Absolutely. And if we're lying all the time, they're picking it up. And they, and they know, yeah.

[00:40:48] Um, in that study with the, uh, with the gift at 98 children between three and seven of, of that 89% lied and, and said they liked it. But the facial expressions of the ages were interesting with that problem. Oh, the three to seven year olds. Well, the two year old had a sad face, even though she said, I really liked the gift. She said, yeah, the grandma should have known. The five year old is kind of like, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:41:15] But the older child, the seven is real big. Well, but the 11% who told the truth, um, their, their facial expressions were similar to the ones who, the 89% who lied like they managed to put on that face and get away with the lie. Yep. So they're skilled at polite deception. Well, they are. And, and they, but they, they start so young. Well, I know.

[00:41:43] I think that's the, that's the thing that kind of blows my mind. Well, the one that they, the one that they did with kids peaking, whether, whether they would look like they, they leave them in a room and tell them not to peek at this gift that's behind them. That's a fun one. And they leave them alone for five minutes. This is lying to avoid punishment is what they were testing. And out of that group, two and a half year olds at two and a half, they were lying to avoid punishment already. What they did is they took kids and it's a fun study.

[00:42:11] They took kids of various ages, but they took them and they hold them to look forward. And somebody came in behind them and put a toy and they knew this. They, they told the kids, they put a toy, um, and hit it from the child under a box and then said, now you are not to turn around and look at the toy. And after they set the toy up, the experimenter says, Oh, I have to step out for just a moment. I'll be right back for five. Don't peek at the toy. We'll play with it when I come back.

[00:42:42] And of course, younger children are more unable to not peak. Yes, of course. Cause they, they got to know. And, but that's our curiosity as human beings, right? Yes. Um, and so, and then when they come back in, they go, did you peak? And of course everything was videotaped. And, uh, it turns out that most children of a young age violate the rule. Well, yeah. And you know, 38% admitted to peaking. 38% said they didn't peak.

[00:43:10] And 24% just didn't even answer. I like that one. Just didn't even do a thing. I've learned from TV not to answer questions. So 62% of the kids between two and a half and three deceived in some way. Facial and body activity didn't differentiate between the truth tellers and the deceivers. So they had already learned to lie fairly successfully by two and a half. They got the picture.

[00:43:38] And I know this is a podcast, but there is a picture of a little boy that looks so freaking guilty. He's the face of every little boy who's ever lied to his parents. Speaking of lies to parents. Oh, our child had one good one. Remember that? We gave him the sandwich and told him to eat it. Oh yeah. And we turned around and wouldn't let him do something until he ate his, his sandwich. His sandwich. We had a friend visiting and we, we turned around. He'd finished the sandwich. You finished your sandwich? He goes, uh-huh. Okay. Well, I guess you can go outside.

[00:44:09] And then our friend started cackling after he left. And I was, what? He goes, look behind your, look behind your stereo and look behind the stereo. There's half a sandwich. He was three. He went outside and enjoyed himself and, and we didn't say anything. No, I let him get away. We let him get away with that lie. Yeah. Because you should be able to get away with a lie occasionally. Otherwise you're going to have a hard time in life. Well, and that's the thing by, you know, they, they looked at this age related changes in

[00:44:36] lying are in Japan, Africa, Chinese, all children that lie to avoid punishment is universal. And so what's to say, of course, we're going to do it as adults. Absolutely. I mean, we're not going to stop doing it. It's a successful technique. Because, well, and we know, like for instance, in courtroom proceedings, when you swear to tell the truth, obviously you can't lie. The whole truth and nothing about the truth. Once you do that, you can't lie. You can't do it. Now, you also have your own self-deception. We haven't even talked about the idea that we lie to ourselves.

[00:45:05] Lying to oneself. All the time. Self-deception is the best one. Well, and it's the most, I think it's one of the most damaging. Other than the idea. Let me read the example. Okay. Benjamin calls a woman for a date and is told she can't see him because she's busy for the next three weekends. He now has a choice. He can conclude she does not want to go out with him and feel humiliated and shamed. Or he can conclude he doesn't want to date such a busy woman. This spares him the shame and humiliation.

[00:45:32] In fact, both thoughts pass through his mind, but he remembers only that he doesn't really want to go out with her anyway. Yes. So that's how he gets. That's a perfect lie to yourself. Because it's a coping skill. Sure. It's a coping technique. You know, when somebody today gets ghosted on the internet by somebody they thought they liked. Yeah. And then they just say to themselves, well, I never liked him anyway. Yeah. He did this and I didn't like that. So it wasn't going to work. And so they started doing studies on kids to learn about self-deception.

[00:46:02] And it was a good old Piaget who kind of kept this thing going. Um, young kill young in the studies, 15 to 24 year month olds demonstrate that pretend play is related to personal pronouns and to mirror self recognition. Now, because of that, we start to see that they are imitate. They start imitating people around them. Yes. And behaving like them.

[00:46:31] So children deceive themselves when they have a pretend friend. They are literally deceiving themselves into believing that there is a friend there. And, and some kids get so locked into it. They, they don't actually can't deal with the idea of the pretend friend not being there. I often wonder if that's just that inner voice we all have being developed. You mean our own narrative? Uh, well, cause we all do it. We have this other us in our heads. Well, it's not other.

[00:47:01] It is us. Is it? It's just, it's just our voice. Why can't it be a completely separate personality in your head that we've learned to control and other people can't and they have a split personality like severed. Well, look at those people talk about self-deception. You're removing the ability. And intentionally having it done. Yeah. Allowing it to be done in order to cope. So you don't remember anything from either work or your regular life, depending on which one you're in at the time.

[00:47:27] And then, so that's a, that's a, that's a form of imposed self-deception. That's like black mirror shit. And I can't deal with that. So you're just going to, we're going to have to put that away. Is that what we're going to have to do? Yes. Yes. We can't do that. So, you know, there's, there's always a seed of truth though. And the things that we don't want to say to ourselves, it's, you have to, well, you deal with it a little at a time so you can grow. If you don't deal with it at all, like you've been lying to yourself about something,

[00:47:56] maybe you get a friend to tell you their observation and maybe they tell you something you don't like, but you, but you take it, you mull over it, you meditate on it. And then you come back later and go, you know, I didn't want to see that, but yeah, maybe that's true. That's a healthy person that deals with that. Well, by the age of three, a child's ability to maintain internal rules and goals allows him to consider the success or failure of his behavior and things he says, and even

[00:48:26] to apportion blame or credit. Now here's where it gets fun. Why do we lie? The things we lie about embarrassment, shame, guilt, pride, financial gain, whatever. This new ability that children develop allows for the emergence of the self-conscious emotions of embarrassment, shame, guilt, and pride, which of course give kids motivation to lie. To lie in order to gain something. So I think that's kind of interesting. So it's, it is part of who we are. Yeah, I think it is.

[00:48:56] And our development. It's part of our brain development. Our successes and failures often hinge around whether we recognize, okay, that didn't work. So maybe I won't do that because ultimately if you, if you lie all the time, if you're like a compulsive liar, then you're not going to have friends. You're it's, you're going to ruin every relationship you have because you can't build trust and with somebody that you know is lying all the time. Well, and that's the thing.

[00:49:24] So our national debate, we have a national debate going on now. We've had it going on for years. It's about whether federal or state agencies are lying to us, which is part of the larger discussion of which morality of lying is pitted against its evolutionary function and its pro social needs. Lying is a social need. It's a construct that we use to get by. Yes. To get by and to get forward.

[00:49:48] But we, we've seen already though, that lying is usually seen as a failure in a personal failure when you have to lie because it damages trust. Right. In a relationship. One of our most commonly human things yet lying to protect the feelings of another appears a necessary act. Um, for society to work and relationships to work. So, so it creates actually a conflict within us. Okay. But if we don't, okay.

[00:50:17] So what if it's our, our institutions lying to us and we catch them in that lie, but then there's no consequence. And there is no consequence. And there is no consequence. We can't, I don't know how we create a consequence for, you know, the lie that we were told when we signed our promissory note for our student loan. Correct. That if you're part of this program, this public service program. And you pay for this many years. And they didn't. And they didn't do that.

[00:50:46] And, uh, and yeah. I mean, ultimately it happened, but we paid it was written down. We pay it was in paper. Yes. We had signed and it was seven years past the date that that should have ended. Yes. For us. And yet we continued to pay for an extra seven years. And literally couldn't get anything done about it. No. At less than 2% of the people who were in that program at the point. At the point where Joe Biden and did all that. So you can hate Joe Biden if you want to, but I'm going to give him that program.

[00:51:16] He at least, he at least honored the agreement that I signed originally. Yes. And, uh, cause otherwise they had just lied to us. Yes. And we paid a good deal more than we were supposed to. Well, seven agreeing that seven years of $500 a month. So you can do the math if you want. I'm not gonna. But that was the point we had been lied to. And it was very, um, it was, uh, disheartening to know that our federal institutions had lied

[00:51:43] about that when I went and worked in the schools and you know, what about the firemen? What about the police? That there are other people who had those loans and we're in the same situation. Right. Either way, if there's no consequence for your institutions lying to you, your politicians, the people you elect. Okay. Well, there is a consequence. We don't reelect. That should be a consequence. That should be a consequence. Yes. It should be. Well, it's going to be the, the populace of the people are fickle.

[00:52:14] I just don't know any other way to say that, but the people are fickle. Well, and it, it, several of the articles I read talked about attempting to force children to always tell the truth. Almost always back. It's harmful. It ends up causing harm. It's going to be harmful. So you've met people like that. I've met people like that. Everybody has. And they, where they often have a sense of humor. They usually don't have a sense of humor and they, I always speak my mind no matter what. Yes. Yeah. But sometimes you don't need to speak at all.

[00:52:42] I've had those conversations with young people, especially when they start working in the work world. Um, you know, I said, your conflicts are arising because you're not tempering your personality. I am who I am. I'm going to be that I'm, this is how I am at home. I said, yeah, but people at home love you. Yeah. The people that you go work with at X don't have to care for you at all and they're going to fire you. So you do need to learn to temper yourself. Well, we all have an office personality. I think used to be young people got that much sooner.

[00:53:12] I think now they're getting it later in life. They're not, it takes them going into the work world to finally realize, oh, I can't be an ass all the time. Well, I think we should just put all these young people in the coal mines that we're opening. That's it. That's it. Again, I'll say it and I'll say it again. They're going to have to go pick crops. If my five-year-old wants to pick coal or grow crops, that is their right as an American. Well, I did, I did see that they found, um, thousands of children ages one to five who

[00:53:42] were receiving unemployment. And that was my first thought is a dear God, what is, what do you have to do as a five-year-old to get laid off and apply for unemployment? I know we've making them work, but damn. He grew too big for, for the spindle turner on the power loom. Yeah. He doesn't fit in the modern chimney anymore. You know how they do that? They take a little kid and they just stick them on the end of a stick and they just shove them down into the, oh yeah. Yeah. Like the stick when you do in a cannon.

[00:54:11] It's like a, it's like a, well, in a way it's sort of like a Q-tip. You got to get a smaller kid. It's like a Q-tip for the chimney. Tiny. And you just use a body. Okay. They hate that. They don't like it. They scream a lot. They do. Okay. Stop. That's probably too much. But they do develop a fine English cockney accent. And black lung. And black lung disease. Which they're going to get again. Hey. Hey. Coal mines reopening. Well, but think about it.

[00:54:39] It's going to bring back music. Working at the coal mines. You bet. Yeah. Yeah. There's always a music attack. We need some new blues. We'll just get a coal mine and work a while. You'll get the blues. Well, you saw one of the people in the administration that said, look, you could give these people a penthouse apartment in Manhattan and give them a different job, a good job. And they're not going to like it. They're going to hate it. They want to dig coal. He did say that. They want to be in the mines. And I'm not lying.

[00:55:09] No. He did. He actually said it. As long as the print article we read was correct. That's an example of someone who should have lied. Yes. Yes. Don't say what you think. But the truth wants to come out. Okay. So let's circle back now to the future because this is scary to me. Yeah. Well, when you're thinking about lying, right? After the other day when we had the crisis in the market and then the crisis was averted

[00:55:36] and everybody that was in the market and held on made shit tons of money. Okay. Well, no, they didn't really. Well, a few people did. If you knew what you were doing, yeah. A few people did. And if you were selling short, you made money. Well, recently the Bank of England has pointed out a point that profit could be made and there could be banking crises created by AI.

[00:56:02] So now that AI has learned that manipulating the market intentionally and creating a crisis can boost profits for banks and traders. Oh, thank goodness. The Bank of England has been warned about this possibility because as AI gets better and learns, it's going to lie and create a crisis in order. Market volatility. Yes. Yeah. Well, then how can we even trust the market? You know, I still have questions about a digital voting booths.

[00:56:30] I don't know how we as society trust that the digital aspect of that is being honorably manipulated. So that's the direction that we have to wonder. Yes. So now we're dealing, like I said, I don't want to watch the new season of Black Mirror because I think we're already living all of this shit. It's scary. And what does it say for us? What does it say for ethics? Yes. Well, AI is not ethical. No, it doesn't have to be. It doesn't need to be. There's no emotion there.

[00:57:00] But remember, AI is just the sum total of all human experience and words, right? And our lives. So it must... It knows that we lie in order to... It must be able to lie. Yes. And you can't... There's no ability to know if an AI is lying. This all started with that damn article about the speeches and we hadn't even talked about it. Which speeches? When they did the study over all those from the 1800s all the way to now, 18,000 speeches

[00:57:29] and how the language is no longer factual at all. Right. It peaked in the 70s. It appeals to feelings. All political speeches by all Congress... Are feelings driven. They're all feeling. All they use are emotion words. Yeah. So nobody tries to further their cause with anything except feelings. That's true. Good or bad, however you agree or disagree, the feelings are the key.

[00:57:57] I can remember years and years ago... And well, why did that peak in the 70s? I don't... And then we just began to get emotional after that. Is that... Because we all felt so bad? No, seriously. Vietnam had ended. Our president had resigned. Oh, the hostages. Interest rates were through the roof. Our hostages got taken. We were feeling really bad as a nation. As a nation. After 76. But weirdly, Ronald Reagan, for the most part, was pretty good at being straightforward.

[00:58:27] He was. I felt like he was fairly straightforward and honest. And I know a lot of people will say, oh, he... Well, he was about making money. I mean, that was... The Reagan era was... Show me a politician that's not. I mean, honestly. Well, truthfully, verily, you say? Verily, I say. Machiavelli. Machiavelli said, occasionally words must serve to veil the facts. But let this happen in such a way that no one become aware of it.

[00:58:56] I like what... Actually, I could probably end the show with George Washington's little comment here. Get down, Bella. And you know, he didn't lie. No, George Washington never lied. That's why the ladies loved him, right? Because we can pretty much wrap it up for this episode of lying, I think. I do believe. You're going to end with George? I think I will. It's either George or Machiavelli. So, just let me... George, since, you know, National History Day coming up.

[00:59:25] Yes, there you go. This was his farewell address, by the way. This is part of his farewell address when he decided to step down after two terms because he didn't want there to be a tradition of whoever's the president to stay the president. To stay there, yeah. And this quote stuck out. Often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community are likely to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert

[00:59:54] the power of the people and to assert for themselves the reins of government. Oh, wow. Hmm. There you go. All right. And that's George. Thank you, George. Yeah. Well, audience, your joy, you know, it's portable. You got to bring it with you. And what I'm going to say is if you're telling a lie, make it for good. There you go. Only lie for good. Lie for good. Lie for positive change. Our audience is smart. They can take that as they will.

[01:00:24] And we would not lie about any of that. Not at all. Y'all have a good two weeks. See you later.